REVOLUTION INTERRUPTUS: Interview with INSIDE DEEP THROAT director Fenton Bailey
Narrated by Dennis Hopper, the counterculture’s own big cheese and walking totem of sexual excess, Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbato’s documentary Inside Deep Throat places its iconic subject at the very heart of the early Seventies’ zeitgeist, a Dionysian explosion from the country’s retarded sexuality which almost immediately slammed against the counter forces of repression and control and leaving behind it a string of obscenity trials, a trail of broken lives, and almost billions of laundered mob profits. “It was a catharsis,” says Fenton Bailey about crafting Inside Deep Throat, “really getting to grips with the time we grew up in. I do think more and more that 1972 was the key year and that really it was the year the map was drawn for the times we live in now. It was some sort of weird, intense, breakthrough year in which lots of things changed. And here we are 33 years later more or less in the same place.”
When you look at the ten years leading up to 1972 you really believe there was a sense of a real social revolution building. “And you know, it WAS. I think Deep Throat was the beginning of the end.” The climax? “Let’s say the Sexual Revolution was interrupted! It was a Revolution Interruptus... I think Deep Throat marks that moment, because the sheer success of the film showed people the commercial possibilities.” And then some very ugly people started getting involved...
British filmmakers Bailey and Barbato are also responsible for both documentary and the heroin-smeared Macaulay Culkin feature Party Monster, the Channel Four series The United States of Television and the six-part Pornography: The Secret History of Civilization. As globetrotting tourists they have made a career out of plunging ass-deep into
One of Bailey and Barbato’s greatest finds was Deep Throat’s reclusive director Gerard Damiano. Now an elderly gent with his shorts pulled up too far over his stomach, he looks like Morty Seinfeld had frequented key parties in the Seventies. Some adult filmmakers considered themselves gutter-level Fellini’s who genuinely thought they were making art - was Damiano like that?
“He did,” says Bailey, “and he didn’t obviously take himself too seriously, but he took his art very seriously. He wanted to be a filmmaker. In hindsight, with the pornography industry the way it is these days, we say of course he was a pornographer, but he really wanted to make movies and had this vision of sex being part of cinema. He didn’t achieve it; sex really isn’t a part of cinema at all. But ironically what he did achieve was creating this multi-billion dollar industry. Not that he benefited.” Damiano is at his proudest showing photos of his family. “He has a peaceful ending. You may not say it’s a happy ending.”
The same can’t be said about Linda, who passed away in 2002 after a car accident, following years of guilt, depression and denial. She cast an even darker shadow over her porn career in a series of books accusing former husband and manager Chuck Traynor of holding a gun to her head during filming, a charge everyone connected to the film denies. “Everyone feels it’s very important to figure out if Linda was telling the truth or not, but I think that’s such a wrong way to look at it. I think she was speaking HER truth, whatever she said when she said it was true for her.
“We didn’t get to speak to Linda, but I do think she found peace. Because she just wanted to hang out with her grandkids. She was the girl next door, you know, and she really didn’t have a lot of ambition. She didn’t want to be a superstar, and I think if she has a regret, it’s that her life was defined by this one thing. She was an ordinary girl who did an extraordinary thing. And I just think she had to pay a really high price. One of the last things she did in her life was sit down and watch the film, and called up a friend the next day and said, ‘What was the big deal?’ I think that speaks volumes.”
These days we take porn as an inalienable right; it’s hard to believe lead coxman Harry Reems was put on trial for performing in the movie. “We take it for granted and forget that there was a time before people could see this stuff. We think of Linda and Harry and Damiano as pornographers, but that’s so wrong. They were avant-garde, bohemian, renegade mavericks.
“I think in years to come we’ll look back on today’s pornography output and say, ‘Gosh, here’s society in the grip of consumerism and commercialism.’ You look at today’s porn and it’s very much a commodity, it’s very stripped of any ideas, of any creative intellectual content, and it’s just...well, fucking. I think Paris Hilton’s homemade tape is a good indication there. I think she’s going through the porn motions and is so detached from what she’s doing that she can even answer her cell phone half way through!
UNEDITED INTERVIEW with FENTON BAILEY
Andrew: I was very impressed by the way the doco was pieced together, and there was stuff in there I’d never read before.
Fenton: Thank you. It was quite an undertaking. It took two and a half years - a lot longer than we thought it was going to take!
I read how you crisscrossed the country for two years trying to find source material. I think the most amazing find was Gerard Damiano.
Yes, he was very reluctant to speak, so we were glad to finally persuade him to do it.
Does he do much press at all?
No, he hasn’t spoken about the film in a long, long time.
There was that moment when someone speaks about Gerard, he rolls his eyes and says he doesn’t want his legs broken! I guess there were a lot of characters associated with the film that felt the same way, that they should wait until 33 years had passed.
That’s very true. There were a lot of people who didn’t want to talk about it even now.
I love the bickering between the elderly couple.
Yes, the way that all turned out was, she wouldn’t sign the release the very first time we were there, so we had to go back and she wouldn’t sign the release the second time! We didn’t know what we were going to do, ‘cause we really felt that it was an important part of the film. So we went back a third and final time and that’s when she signed the release and that’s when we got her talking about their wedding anniversary.
Talking her around must have been an amazing piece of persuasion.
Yeah. Sometimes it’s just catching people on the right day.
Lenny Camp, he seems to be having an incredible time running EVERYbody down.
He’s an equal opportunity offendor!
Everyone is dogshit, and that was shit... He’s a great crusty counterpoint to the guy with the satin shorts - the other production assistant.
Ron...
All those characters really make the film.
Our goal was to find everybody who was connected to the film because so many people have so much to say about pornography, we thought it would be best to go back to the people who made it.
There was that magical moment where pornography bleeds into the mainstream - you get the impression that some of the more successful adult filmmakers were kinda gutter-level Fellinis - from art school who genuinely thought they were making art. Was Damiano like that?
He did... and he didn’t obviously take himself too seriously, but he took his art very seriously. We wanted to be a filmmaker, he didn’t want to be a pornographer. In hindsight, with the pornography industry the way it is these days, we say of course he was a pornographer, but he really wanted to make movies and had this vision of sex being part of cinema. He didn’t achieve it; sex really isn’t a part of cinema at all, quite the reverse. But ironically what he did achieve was creating this multi-billion dollar industry - not that he benefitted. [the Mob controlled prints of Deep Throat]
He must be bitter about that.
I think he was bitter for a long time.
It doesn’t come through in your film.
What could he do with the money now? I think it’s all in the past in a way.
He’s at his proudest when he’s showing photos of his family, and not the posters of his films. He has a loving family around him at least.
He has, and he has a peaceful ending. You may not say it’s a happy ending.
Shame the same thing can’t be said about Linda. And I guess it is a shame in one way that you didn’t get to speak to Linda while she was alive - you do speak to her sister, which is quite bizarre [she is so angry]
We didn’t get to speak to Linda, but I do think she found peace. Because she just wanted to hang out with her grandkids. She was the girl next door, you know, and she really didn’t have a lot of ambition. I’m not putting her down - she was as famous as Madonna, but she didn’t really wanna BE Madonna. And I think in the end she found she got through the whole feeling victimized. One of the last things she did in her life was sit down and watch the film, and called up a friend the next day and said, “What was the big deal?’” And I think that’s really revealing. I think that speaks volumes.
I’m not sure if you contacted Marilyn Chambers...
Yes, we did interview Marilyn Chambers. She just didn’t make it into the documentary. She’ll be on the DVD. It was very hard to fit everything in.
She would have had a lot to say about Chuck Traynor, I guess...
She did - she said Chuck Traynor didn’t abuse her - Marilyn Chambers is a very different character. Everyone feels it’s very important to figure out if Linda was telling the truth or not, but I think that’s such a wrong way to look at it. I think she was speaking HER truth, whatever she said when she said it was true for her. OK, so it’s possible that Chuck didn’t abuse Marilyn. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t abuse Linda. It takes two to make an abusive relationship. Marilyn’s a lot more fiery, self-assertive kind of person.
You do come away with the impression that Linda was manipulated by various groups for their own ends, and the anti-porn crusade in the 70s certainly did trot her out like some porn freak show. She comes across as a real innocent.
I think so, and she herself felt clearly used by the feminist camp, so I think as Damiano says, though, she just needed someone to tell her what to do. I know that sounds harsh, but it’s true, because she didn’t want to do much, she was quite happy just to BE. She didn’t want to be a superstar, and I think if she has a regret, it’s that her life was defined by this one thing. God forbid that you or I should be defined by one thing.
Would you agree with PT Anderson’s assertion in Boogie Nights that video killed any semblance of art in pornography?
No, I think video is part of the story for sure. But the moment the ratings system came in in ‘68, that was the end of it.
And The Wild Bunch...
Yeah... but because the MPAA didn’t protect the X rating, the adult business quickly jumped on that bandwagon, slapped an X on their stuff, and then theatres stopped showing it, and newspapers stopped advertising it, and suddenly you couldn’t realease an X rated movie and have it be some credible thing. So it was all quite cleverly engineered, I think.
Nixon really does come across as a symbol of the uptight, asexual forces of control - a kind of backward-looking individual who is in every strata of American society trying to take the FUN out of the Sexual Revolution.
Yes, but what a clever, clever man. He saw the Sexual Revolution happening, we know that Nixon was never the sort of person who supported the Sexual Revolution, and I think he devised a way to end it really before it happened.
Throwing a blanket over the party...
Absolutely.
Obviously Harry Reems came out of the turmoil - he’s a strange character, he’s one who was reluctant to talk about his experiences, but he was waiting for the right project to come clean (no pun intended).
Yes, when we first met him he was reluctant to talk - he certainly hadn’t gone underground, he wasn’t hiding who he was or anything like that, but he was very reluctant.
He ends up becoming a born again Christian and sells real estate - but he still has an incredibly good sense of humour about it.
Exactly. You would expect most Born Again Christians to probably disavow that part, and he didn’t.
And he still has that mischievous glint in his eye!
He does. He’s a really funny guy, he really is. A lot of them were really funny guys. And I think it’s a disservice to Linda that she’s remembered as a sort of humourless frump, because she was fun.
She just allowed herself to be twisted into the Adrea Dworkin mould.
I just don’t want to dog Linda Lovelace too much. Like I said, she was an ordinary girl who did an extraordinary thing. And I just think she had to pay a really high price, really drew the short straw.
What most people aren’t aware of are the long protracted legal battles from before and after Deep Throat - people take porn as a given, as an inalienable right.
You’re so right about that - we take it for granted and forget that there was a time before oeople could see this stuff. We think of Linda and Harry and Damiano as pornographers, but that’s so WRONG. They were avant-garde bohemian renegade mavericks.
It’s a shame that porn is seen as this dumbed down functional thing that people “use” instead of watch and study as a serious subject.
I think in years to come we’ll look back on today’s pornography output and say, ‘Gosh, here’s society in the grip of consumerism and commercialism. You look at today’s porn and it’s very much a commodity, it’s very stripped of any ideas, of any creative intellectual content, and it’s just...fucking. I think Paris Hilton’s homemade tape is a good indication there. I think she’s going through the porn motions and is so detached from what she’s doing that she can even answer her cell phone half way through.
A soulless performance...
Right. But I think we’ll historically be able to see that as a reflection of a society that’s consumer obsessed.
You guys did a six part series on the history of pornography. How far back did you go?
We went back 2000 years. We started with the sculptures and frescoes in
Even after doing a six part series on porn, was it still intimidating to tackle such an icon like Deep Throat?
We really had to get to grips [ahem] with the Mob, I suppose. That was potentially quite intimidating.
Inside Deep Throat is like the final word on such a powerful 70s icon.
Hey! I’m not going to disagree with you on that! We didn’t feel, not that we were entitled, but having lived through it, we felt some sort of connection to it. I think we were too young to see the film when it came out, obviously, but it was good to have lived through it because we could check what we were learning against our own experience, and knew that...it was a catharsis, really getting to grips with the time we grew up in. I do think more and more that 1972 was the key year and that really it was the year the map was drawn for the times we live in now. I don’t think we’ve moved very far beyond 1972. It was some sort of weird, intense, breakthrough year in which lots of things changed. And here we are 32 years later more or less in the same place.
You can look at the ten years leading up to 1972 and believe there was a sense of change, a real social revolution building, and then you get to the watershed year of 1972 and think, shit, is that IT?
And you know, it kinda WAS it. I think Deep Throat was the beginning of the end...
The climax...
Let’s say the Sexual Revolution was interrupted (laughter...), it was a Revolution Interruptus... I think Deep Throat marks that moment, because at that moment the sheer commercial success of the film showed people the commercial possibilities. At that moment ideology slipped into commercial considerations.
And then some very ugly people started getting involved...
Right! One of the idealogues, like your Jan Wenners who started Rolling Stone, suddenly the agenda went from revolutionary to making money.
You also look at the story of the Mitchell brothers - they start of as freewheeling
That was one of the most exciting things...one or two people did suggest that we talk to some younger people like Pamela Anderson or Paris Hilton, but honestly they have nothing to say, and I think it’s great that older people will talk about sex in a direct way and with some experience.
And with a lot of humour too...
Yeah. Let’s face it, they were there, they were the people who lived through this. Who else were we going to talk to? I just couldn’t get the point of talking to Pamela Anderson... bless ‘em. It was exciting, especially when Helen Gurly Brown talks about ejaculate as moisturizer!
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